facebook

CoolStuffInc.com

Turn your cards and minis into cash! Maximize your value with our 25% store credit bonus!
   Sign In
Create Account

Replying to the Readers

Reddit

Last week's article caused a hell of a stir, which is what I like to see. I'm much more into being an instigator of discussion than I am with being "right" (though it's nice to be right.) This week, I'm going to address the best and most insightful comments and use those to find some of the topics I neglected last week. Thanks to those who made insightful comments, and please be sure to leave more this week!

No

"I am a firm believer that a player (that is, a participant in a game) can, and should, do everything in his power to win the game he is playing without violating any rules. "

I completely disagree with this statement. There are lots of unwritten rules in sports that don't violate the rulebook:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hopoate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTeCc8jy7FI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledging_(cricket)

But nevertheless I would classify as being poor sportsmanship.

I also think that the tragedy of the commons does not mean what you think it means, since it's irrelevant in a discussion around asset ownership.

I expected to flame a whole lot more, but by and large I agree with the rest of your article. Trading is most definitely *not* a zero sum game, it's almost the definition of a win-win interaction. As long as the balance doesn't get too far out of whack. For me that's when you value your opponents cards at dealers buy prices and your cards at dealers sell prices.

There is a player at my local shop who is a 'value' trader, and always wants a large markup (for example, he currently wants to trade people a his Koth for their 2 Molten-Tail Masticores, a trade that might have been fair at the pre-release but is getting more and more unbalanced as time goes on). Given that I know the relative values of my cards I have never traded with him, even when he really wants the cards I have. Cause he only seems to trade when he's getting a 50% markup.

I think that the real question is what is a reasonable profit for someone to make in a trade. I can accept a dealer making a 100% 'profit' in the discrepancy in their buy/sell list. A player operating with a 100% markup seems to me to be excessively greedy.

In the above comment, the reader pointed to a few instances of poor sportsmanship that fell within the rules of the game. While I don't believe any instances as severe as the ones mentioned occur regularly in Magic trading, I can see the corollary. My discussion of the Tragedy of the Commons was not meant to be a perfect analogy, but was meant to show the classic example that what is good for the group is often not what is good for the individual.

In the case of trading Magic cards, we can all probably agree that good traders make the game better for everyone. They give people the chance to acquire cards while providing a friendly alternative to a big commercial dealer (who have a very important place, but are often large companies instead of individuals). The problem comes when there isn't a policy in place to prevent unsportsmanlike behavior that is otherwise beneficial to the poor sport.

There is a large difference between the behaviors that I condone as an ethical person and the behaviors I must be aware of from others. I can't stress enough that, while I probably have enough of a readership at this point to do some 'insider trading' type shenanigans, it is so categorically against what I stand for that I never consider it. This is my own decision, but I make it knowing that an unscrupulous competitor with similar resources could easily gain an advantage on me in this manner. Nevertheless, I kind of believe that Google has the right business plan - get the information however you can, and do no evil with it. Insider trading to me is Evil, and I won't do it. The point is not if I will or will not do it; the task remains doable and unfortunately, profitable. Those who are willing to act unethically can thus make more money (in the short term at least).

I love that the reader, in this case, "gets" the fact that trading is not zero sum. Here's how a typical trade goes down at my shop.

PLAYER: I have these assorted cards I rarely use and you have a copy of a Standard staple I need for FNM this week.

DEALER/TRADER: I have the card you need and although I do not have an immediate use for those cards, I will offer you a price that is sensitive to the time it will take for me to flip them and the margin on which I can flip them.

PLAYER: I understand this transaction may lose value on paper, but you are offering me value by consolidating my unwanted cards into value that would otherwise take many hours on ebay to recoup.

This is win-win. I do this often, on both sides of the coin, and it does not matter if you are a "Dealer" or "Trader" when this trade occurs. If someone is accepting your cards at a lower rate than normal, they are probably doing so because they do not actively need those cards. If the rate is low enough, I will buy anything. There is no limit to margin, as this reader might suggest. I see no reason for a player to make a trade when the margin is not acceptable to him. As a dealer, I usually aim to double up on my trades. As a player, I aim to just make around 15-20% with throw-ins, value disparities, etc. If I could get away with making 100% while maintaining my reputation as a fair and honest guy, I would. That's just not possible! There are too many discussions to be had about a card's relative value (ie 500 $1 cards are not worth a $500 card to some people, but are to others). It comes down to your distribution medium and infrastructure. I have a small store that moves a few cards. I'd much rather sell some things to larger dealers who will make a small markup and remove my concern of selling these items. This includes bulk, oddities, supplies, etc. Many floor traders knowingly or unknowingly act as middle men between casual players and the big dealers.

Moving on to the next comment I want to address:

Fabest

Trading Magic Cards for profit is sad. Trading them to play them is what the game is all about.

Trading for profit means you always try to take advantage over someone else. Trading for playing means you don't really care about losing/winning a trade (what an awful expression, trades should be fair by definition) as long as you have the cards you want (well without being totally ripped off of course).

When you trade an Obstinate Baloth for 2$ and then sell it for 5$, you made 3$ out of nothing. You didn't add anything to the card, the card isn't better or different because you had it, and you didn't provide any kind of service. You only used information the other hasn't and take profit of it. You're trickying him, and you're a swindler.

Of course if you traded for the Baloth to play it, and then trade it back because you don't need it anymore, you may benefit from its price change, absolutly no problem with that. But it may has lost value too, and it won't really bother you as you played it and used it as you wished to.

As I said, trading Magic Cards for profit is sad. It is sad to see people trying to make profit out of everything. Magic is a game, a leisure for most of the players. Please let it be simple, fair, fun. Please do not force us to spend hours reading price sheets as you do, because this is very sad too. There are so many better things to do in life. I don't want to be swindled, but I don't want to lose hours looking at price guides, charts, cards evaluations, expectations… But because of people like you, it's either one or the other. Thanks.

I try to avoid feeding the trolls whenever possible, but I just have to say that trading Magic cards for profit is the way I make my living. Trading Magic cards for profit puts food on the table, a roof over my head, gas in my car and a smile on my face. I have the best job on earth, and it's all because of trading Magic cards for profit. I wake up every day with a genuine sense of well-being and gratitude for the live I have built, and if you think that's sad, I'll leave you to think that. Back on planet Earth, let me know if you ever need some Magic cards or anything!

The followup comment makes a good point, however:

browndr

Obvious Troll is Obvious

The problem with calling everyone who doesn't take the time to ensure their trades are accurate does not help to enlighten the common player. My work on ManaNation, Quiet Speculation, and around the Web is focused on giving casual players access to the tools they need without taking the time to build them themselves. QS is always developing new tools too, so we are constantly finding out what features users want. Our job is to make sure you have the knowledge at the ready so you don't get sharked. There will always be sharks, but in a world where many people make it a hobby, trading Magic cards can easily become a job, business or career. There are sharks and there are honest businesspeople.

Artos

What you are stating is that you are not an ethical trader, and neither is anyone else who is doing it purely to make a profit. It is a trade, not a transaction for some additional profit. You don't like the idea of ethics being involved because it gets in the way of you making a profit.

There are plenty of ways to make a profit on Magic without ripping people off when trading. I personally have no issues with selling to a dealer for less than what the cards are worth. He is doing work in that he is taking those cards and investing his time and money to resell them to someone else who wants them. In some cases, he may not make anything back or lose money because a card's value suddenly drops, and he might make a good deal more than expected for the same reason. I am not willing to trade with people who take advantage of me or people who are less familiar with the Magic secondary market, and I encourage others to avoid them as well because frankly, if you want to make a profit on Magic, do it the same way the dealers do now and stop trying to take advantage of others.

I think I addressed this when I said that my own ethics do not necessarily have a bearing on what I expect other people to do. When there are no sanctions for being a scumbag trader, some people will continue to do it. My belief is that as long as all parties know a few commonly accepted reference points, the trade is legitimate. I like to use the larger dealers' prices to make decisions, and many people are OK with this. Again, just because this author is ethical, that does not make all of the people in the industry ethical.

browndr

This is exactly the same thing as what Kelly Reid is talking about. If you have no problem with a dealer offering you less than full value of a card, then you should have no issues with a trader trading you less than full value of the same card. A dealer is simply a trader with higher expenses.

On to the Trader vs Dealer debate. I've been on both sides of this one - the dealer side for only about a year and the trader side since approximately birth. Give or take, but I was slinging baseball cards on the playground in 4th grade. Old school. I can safely say that a lot of traders offer similar things as dealers without the polish, infrastructure and formality of a larger dealer. Here's the way I see it. Dealer X sets up a good business model around a Brick and Mortar store. Trader Y sees this business model and realizes that he can leverage the power of the internet to get accurate price data and run a similar business model with lower overhead. He keeps his stock in a basic spreadsheet or uses an eCommerce package like CrystalCommerce to manage inventory, and runs it out of his apartment somewhere that rent is cheap and flights to major hubs are quick and easy. Thus, there is no reason for this Trader to set up a B&M store.

I encounter this problem routinely when people try to evaluate my business model for my B&M store. People fixate on my event turn-outs. Events are a great way to get buyers for cards in the door, but aside from big events and pre-releases, they aren't baseline profitable. I don't charge for FNM since it's my favorite way to get new players introduced into the game, yet I still give a prize. Usually it's whatever sweet promos or gimimcks I have lying around the store. If I get lazy, store credit. The reason I own the B&M store is that I can give people a quick friendly fun and easy way to sell cards to me. I never wanted to do anything more than buy cards cheaply, and I figured that after I bought enough cards at half-price, my rent would be paid and I'd be making profit. I only try to sell enough cards to keep my doors open, preferring to retain stock in most cases. The stock is what keeps people coming back to me.

A trader is a dealer with less polish that doesn't need a retail space, and considering how many decentralized businesses are growing online today, that should become the norm. I could probably coach someone into starting an online shop for under 5 figures, including the time it would take to consult, get the ecommerce and hosting, and inventory all their products. Considering that some stores pay 5 figures of commercial rent a month, this seems like a pretty good sign that traders are getting smaller and more nimble. This is not some upstart rebellion. This is the sign of change, so get with the program.

Kelly Reid

It's not my place to preach ethics, so I avoid doing so. My ethics are my own, and they usually include a healthy dose of "heal the world". That does not change the nature of the business world as a whole.

My point is that - ethics aside - ripping people off is a poor business decision. see my previous comment about shearing a sheep rather than skinning it. people LOVE trading with me because I can usually swing a square deal, engage them, chat with them, and never pressure them. i'd never get that as a ripoff artist.

I think I will actually delve into morality and ethics temporarily. The reason I do not is because it is different for everyone. My ethics are not your ethics, and everyone categorically believes their ethics are "more" correct than everyone else's. Otherwise they'd subscribe to someone else's ethic set. I'm not a great philosopher, so I'll leave the deep ethics discussion to those who are. I just go by this rule: What would I do if my mother was watching? For reference, my mother is also a small biz owner and one of the sharpest business development minds I know. She always knows how to negotiate a better deal but raised me to believe that people are always more important. They say that ethics are what you do when you know you won't be discovered, and that's about the right way to think.

I usually give the example that ripoffs are bad for business, stating the old skin/shear a sheep proverb. The fact that I don't rip people off because it's bad business is not an issue of ethics. It is an issue of business. If it were more profitable in the long-term and short term to rip people off, and I still did not do so, that would be ethical behavior. The fact of the matter is that if you ca rip people off without it hurting your business, your ethics are the only thing stopping you. In my case, I'm big on the Golden Rule, so I treat people kindly and fairly. If you want to be unethical, unfriendly, and just be a general ass-hat (this is a technical term), then feel free, but expect people to treat you the same way.

The bottom line is that if you conduct your business with a high level of transparency and honesty, it's hard to screw people over. I love telling my customers how I derive my pricing. I explain to them that it's a "special sauce" kind of algorithm I write and tweak that combines many price points (buying and selling) from many sources and that I also factor in current stock, ability to resell, age and demand of the card, etc. While they usually stop me before I'm done explaining (indicating they're comfortable with the structure they're using), I love explaining it. Sometimes a customer will give me a great new idea, so I'm happy to show them the process. I don't fear my competitors using it, since it is likely I can just as easily borrow innovations from them. If you care to be ethical in your trading, which I hope you do, just consider how you'd feel if you were the other person. No one likes getting ripped off. So don't rip people off. There is nothing dishonest about saying "I'll give you $5, and I'll probably resell it for $10 within 30 days." There's also nothing wrong with replying "Pound sand, I can get $10 myself for it". Dealers and traders are never obligated to make a deal more enticing than they need to, and you should never expect them to. Food for thought: why would I raise my buy price on something if plenty of people are already selling me a sufficient amount of the card?

If desired, I can continue this thread of discussion into next week's piece, but unless a strong reply requests such a continuance, I'll move on to one of the other topics I have set aside. Good or bad, I really appreciate people who take the time to comment on my work. I'm happy to disagree on things, because it's better than writing for my cats (who have no idea how to value trade). Thanks as always for reading! I'm going to be syndicating last week's piece on Quiet Speculation soon, where a lot of interesting debate has sprung up around Jahn's article. Stop over, join the debate, and maybe give us a vote in our essay contest. It's the big red button on the right side!

Sell your cards and minis 25% credit bonus